I heard a school counselor once say, "If you don't go to college, how do you expect to be successful?" Actually, it is a common statement by teachers, too. "You've got to go to college children. Otherwise, you'll be looooosers...cackle-cackle." Well, ok, so maybe they don't actually cackle when they say it, but if you ask kids, they certainly hear it. Students are assaulted from all sides-parents, teachers, other family members- with the idea that they MUST go to college. I say it HURTS public schools. That's right. Expecting every child to go to college, HURTS public schools and even our country in general. How, you may ask?
First of all, there is a clear shortage of skilled tradesmen (and tradeswomen...don't leave nasty comments). One needs only to Google it and look in the "news" category, though here is one example. Secondly, think of the law of diminishing returns as well as simple supply and demand.
For example, why does the Honus Wagner baseball card sell for $1.2 million dollars? One word: RARE. And the value of anything, including an education, is determined by that same word. You see, when I think of the idea of everyone going to college, I think of the following scene from
Disney/Pixar's "The Incredibles."
I believe one of the biggest reforms that we could undertake in the United States today is to stop this "everyone-goes-to-college" ideology. Students don't want it, and neither do teachers who are completely honest with what an education actually is. There's hardly anything that comes out of Texas that I agree with, but if we want to be globally competitive, then we need to open college paths to the best and brightest students and we need to open skilled trade paths to the best and brightest workers. Stop trying to shove all students into the same predetermined square. Read more about the Vocational Bill in Texas that, I think, is a step in the right direction.
Great post. I spent a bit of time as an adjunct math professor, when I talked to students who were struggling in my classes, my most common thought was that they don't belong in college at all. It's not that they didn't have the ability (usually), but they clearly didn't want to be there. They were of the mindset that they needed a college degree to do anything useful, so they were just trying to push through doing as little as possible to get that piece of paper.
They didn't want to be in college, they didn't care about learning, they were interested in their classes. Having those students in college is just dumb. It would have been much better for them to have some kind of trade school option. And it would be nice to get them out of my class to make room for other students who actually are interested.
Thanks for the post...and I couldn't agree more! +1 Many students arrive at college with the same sense of entitlement with which they left high school. This is essentially the philosophy of "Hey, I'm here aren't I? So, where is the doctor/lawyer/engineer class so I can sit for 4 years, do nothing, expect a diploma and buy my McMansion and Porsche? Wait...what? I have to work hard?!?! That's not fair!" I'm amazed that college instructors, with way more political pull than a public school teacher, haven't started sounding these alarms more. Many secondary teachers have said for years, "We're trying...but there are just a certain percentage of students who refuse to study, refuse to complete assignments, and refuse to take part in ANY way in their education." Many college professors are beginning to see these students. At first, I actually had friends at the college level saying, "What in the heck are YOU sending us?" But now, finally, I think professors are seeing that secondary teachers are really really (no, really) desperately trying...trying soooo hard, but with little cooperation from the target of their efforts. When leading that "horse water" one can tug on the reins for only so long before saying, "Fine...go ahead and die of dehydration." Again...sort of like natural selection, I say
I'm about halfway there with you. College is a waste of time for kids getting out of high school with no real idea of what they actually want to do with their lives. However, some of the basic associates level college courses shouldn't be missed. I mean, ENG 101 and 102 should be mandatory. I was a top level student in High School English, and above average in that area overall, but nothing improved my writing ability more than the "some college" classes I attended in Community College. I also took an Intro to Logic course early on where I struggled with the writing because I had never been taught how to structure a written argument properly. This is crucial for effective communication, even in a trade environment. AA and AS level degrees should be encouraged, and possibly include more trade level specialization that is taken seriously in the job market. I dropped out of college ten years ago only a few credits short of an AS because of family and career commitments. Now, at 34, I actually know what I want to do when I grow up, and I wish I had finished that AS, because now I want to leave the CIS field and go into teaching Science, specifically physics with STEM applications, and rather than diving right into the teaching program, I have to go back and finish up those last few credits.
Now, I actually wanted to go to college, and I enjoyed it, but I was also paying my own way. I think that has a major impact on student motivation. When a student is going to college because they think they have to and either their parents are paying for it, or else they got a loan that they don't have to start paying back right away, thus removing the immediate burden of responsibility, then I can see why they wouldn't be motivated or care about what they are learning, but I do think we need a minimum education level just a bit above High School. I mean, I had some personal issues that took me from a 4.0 GPA in 9th grade to a .6 GPA in 11th and 12th, dropped out twice, then got my GED a year later only to score within the top 5th percentile of GRADUATING seniors. I happen to be an autodidact, specifically when it comes to information technology, otherwise I wouldn't have had the career opportunities I did. I want to teach now because I have a passion for the subject and I want to instill a fascination for Science and its applications into the coming generations and promote the Maker generation. We need to make the 2-year college degree more valuable and hands-on. A B.S. in Computer Science is practically useless in real-world IT. I'd hire someone with a 2 year degree specializing in Linux administration or Cisco routing because I'd know that they not only have hands on experience working with relevant technologies, but I'd also know that they possess the basic writing abilities to effectively communicate. During my 15 year career in IT, the greatest frustration wasn't so much a lack of tech savvy, that I can excuse and correct, but rather the inability to communicate via email. I've face-palmed at c-level, company wide emails that inadvertently sent the wrong message because they were HS graduates that went right into sales and found themselves in charge of a runaway start-up company though they could barely write an effective email.
So, yes, I agree that a 4-year college isn't for everyone, but High School isn't enough either, and I don't think just shoving in some trade classes will cut it. We've had a program here in Arizona called EVIT for quite a few years that focuses on trade education, but we need some additional competency in other areas as well. Critical thinking, logic, and written communication are key. Limor Fried recently participated in a Fire Side Hangout with President Obama and brought up an interesting point. Whereas there is a foreign language requirement in High School, there should also be a computer language requirement.
Thanks Justin, I enjoyed reading your post and especially the part about what you want to be "when you grow up" XD I said the same thing at age 30 and you and I seem to have similar experiences. I, too, attempted college right after high school and failed miserably. But, after a few years of "jobs" I decided I WANTED to go back to college. Like you, I was surprised that I actually LIKED school this time. And like you, I'm sure part of the increase in personal value was the fact that it was on MY nickel, not mommy and daddy's. What I would like to see is different "paths" for students. Yet the "paths" should not necessarily lock someone into a particular career and/or prevent them from attending college sometime in the future IF they so desire. Vocational "track" students can still take algebra (as many of the trades use it) it just should be taught in a much different way for "those" students...less classroom theoretical application, and more real-world application
Great post. I spent a bit of time as an adjunct math professor, when I talked to students who were struggling in my classes, my most common thought was that they don't belong in college at all. It's not that they didn't have the ability (usually), but they clearly didn't want to be there. They were of the mindset that they needed a college degree to do anything useful, so they were just trying to push through doing as little as possible to get that piece of paper.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't want to be in college, they didn't care about learning, they were interested in their classes. Having those students in college is just dumb. It would have been much better for them to have some kind of trade school option. And it would be nice to get them out of my class to make room for other students who actually are interested.
Thanks for the post...and I couldn't agree more! +1
DeleteMany students arrive at college with the same sense of entitlement with which they left high school. This is essentially the philosophy of "Hey, I'm here aren't I? So, where is the doctor/lawyer/engineer class so I can sit for 4 years, do nothing, expect a diploma and buy my McMansion and Porsche? Wait...what? I have to work hard?!?! That's not fair!" I'm amazed that college instructors, with way more political pull than a public school teacher, haven't started sounding these alarms more. Many secondary teachers have said for years, "We're trying...but there are just a certain percentage of students who refuse to study, refuse to complete assignments, and refuse to take part in ANY way in their education." Many college professors are beginning to see these students. At first, I actually had friends at the college level saying, "What in the heck are YOU sending us?" But now, finally, I think professors are seeing that secondary teachers are really really (no, really) desperately trying...trying soooo hard, but with little cooperation from the target of their efforts. When leading that "horse water" one can tug on the reins for only so long before saying, "Fine...go ahead and die of dehydration." Again...sort of like natural selection, I say
I'm about halfway there with you. College is a waste of time for kids getting out of high school with no real idea of what they actually want to do with their lives. However, some of the basic associates level college courses shouldn't be missed. I mean, ENG 101 and 102 should be mandatory. I was a top level student in High School English, and above average in that area overall, but nothing improved my writing ability more than the "some college" classes I attended in Community College. I also took an Intro to Logic course early on where I struggled with the writing because I had never been taught how to structure a written argument properly. This is crucial for effective communication, even in a trade environment. AA and AS level degrees should be encouraged, and possibly include more trade level specialization that is taken seriously in the job market. I dropped out of college ten years ago only a few credits short of an AS because of family and career commitments. Now, at 34, I actually know what I want to do when I grow up, and I wish I had finished that AS, because now I want to leave the CIS field and go into teaching Science, specifically physics with STEM applications, and rather than diving right into the teaching program, I have to go back and finish up those last few credits.
ReplyDeleteNow, I actually wanted to go to college, and I enjoyed it, but I was also paying my own way. I think that has a major impact on student motivation. When a student is going to college because they think they have to and either their parents are paying for it, or else they got a loan that they don't have to start paying back right away, thus removing the immediate burden of responsibility, then I can see why they wouldn't be motivated or care about what they are learning, but I do think we need a minimum education level just a bit above High School. I mean, I had some personal issues that took me from a 4.0 GPA in 9th grade to a .6 GPA in 11th and 12th, dropped out twice, then got my GED a year later only to score within the top 5th percentile of GRADUATING seniors. I happen to be an autodidact, specifically when it comes to information technology, otherwise I wouldn't have had the career opportunities I did. I want to teach now because I have a passion for the subject and I want to instill a fascination for Science and its applications into the coming generations and promote the Maker generation. We need to make the 2-year college degree more valuable and hands-on. A B.S. in Computer Science is practically useless in real-world IT. I'd hire someone with a 2 year degree specializing in Linux administration or Cisco routing because I'd know that they not only have hands on experience working with relevant technologies, but I'd also know that they possess the basic writing abilities to effectively communicate. During my 15 year career in IT, the greatest frustration wasn't so much a lack of tech savvy, that I can excuse and correct, but rather the inability to communicate via email. I've face-palmed at c-level, company wide emails that inadvertently sent the wrong message because they were HS graduates that went right into sales and found themselves in charge of a runaway start-up company though they could barely write an effective email.
So, yes, I agree that a 4-year college isn't for everyone, but High School isn't enough either, and I don't think just shoving in some trade classes will cut it. We've had a program here in Arizona called EVIT for quite a few years that focuses on trade education, but we need some additional competency in other areas as well. Critical thinking, logic, and written communication are key. Limor Fried recently participated in a Fire Side Hangout with President Obama and brought up an interesting point. Whereas there is a foreign language requirement in High School, there should also be a computer language requirement.
Thanks Justin, I enjoyed reading your post and especially the part about what you want to be "when you grow up" XD I said the same thing at age 30 and you and I seem to have similar experiences.
DeleteI, too, attempted college right after high school and failed miserably. But, after a few years of "jobs" I decided I WANTED to go back to college. Like you, I was surprised that I actually LIKED school this time. And like you, I'm sure part of the increase in personal value was the fact that it was on MY nickel, not mommy and daddy's.
What I would like to see is different "paths" for students. Yet the "paths" should not necessarily lock someone into a particular career and/or prevent them from attending college sometime in the future IF they so desire. Vocational "track" students can still take algebra (as many of the trades use it) it just should be taught in a much different way for "those" students...less classroom theoretical application, and more real-world application